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Transition Planning for Young Adults
The 18th birthday for a child experiencing disability is likely the most pivotal in their life care planning! The 18th birthday not only signals their transition into adulthood, but it also sets into motion numerous planning considerations and decisions that need to be made for their future.
What changes do I need to be aware of with Medicaid and the Oregon K-Plan now that my child has turned 18? Do I need to charge my child rent to maintain their current SSI benefit amount? What questions should I be asking in terms of employment, and...college?!
In this webinar, we cover the most important life care planning considerations to be made when your child has turned 18!
Transition Planning Topics Discussed:
Understanding SSI for Adults
Charging rent, rep payee rules and more!
Tips when Applying for SSI Benefits through Social Security
Support Planning for an Adult
Guardianship, Conservatorship & Alternatives
Medicaid & K-Plan Changes at Age 18
Brokerage Services vs. County DD Services
Vision and Goal Planning -ABLE Account Changes & Planning for Adults
Important Employment Considerations and Resources
Post Secondary Education Options - COLLEGE!?
Transition Planning Webinar Transcript
Welcome!
Alright, happy Tuesday good afternoon to everybody and thanks so much for joining us! Gosh, the last six weeks or or sorry the last six months of webinars, it's been sunny and 75 out and so we've been fighting that! Well, it's 55, cloudy and rainy so you guys are probably all inside. Hopefully, this is the big event of the day but we appreciate you guys being here I think this is a really important topic and I I'm guessing you guys do as well 'cause you're here.
Age 18— Most Important Birthday!
The transition planning of age 18 is is what we call the most important birth date for an individual experiencing disability so we're going to go through a 29 slides in the next hour to hour and a half or so. I sat down I and I put these together and I and I pull in different presentations slide decks and I think about the best way to explain some of these things and I think through just our experiences on working with with families and I think this is the most important part though this this is a presentation that could probably be you know six hours I i kid you not if not six days but again this is gonna give you a really strong foundation whether your family a professional whether you know this stuff more than i do. Hopefully you walk away with a couple things that are helpful.
My name is Connor and again I'm glad you guys are here. We have this the classic disclosure slide and my quick summary of this is we talk about things from specialist planning to tax planning to you know sometimes investment planning with ABLE accounts and and all these different things make sure that when you either work with a family or it's you as a family implementing it with a part of your advisory team or maybe it's just yourself make sure you you take no account the specifics of your situation because as we know the details do actually matter and what you think might not be a big big issue or not affect anything might might might be what ends up reducing a benefit or jeopardizing eligibility. So, just make sure you guys are working with people that do know we're asking the right questions and again we do this we have families think joining us from from three different states and and so this is not you know state specific or county specific but again higher level.
I guess for the families that don't know a ton about us we've been around for about 10 or so years and we've worked with almost 4,000 families in the disability community this is exclusively the work that we do so we only work with families that have a son, daughter, brother, sister with a disability so on the nuances of all these different things and the details this is what we spend all our time researching and learning and talking about. We feel like we're hopefully equipped to do a very very good job on all different aspects of of specialties planning so hopefully that gives you guys an idea of the role that we play. We don't do these do these presentations to talk about us so I'll I'll skip right on through this but we encourage families you know to reach out to us after if you have any additional questions we can dive in more about the work that we do and how we can help. So, we talked with with with families about literally everything on this chart and we talk about it almost on an annual basis well we'll start out in kind of laying the foundation for transition planning at age 18 with highlighting a couple things. Like I mentioned, when we first jumped on just a couple minutes ago the most important birth date for child experiencing disability is age 18 though they're all important but what happens at age 18 is become they become a legal adult and when you look at needs based benefits, we look at eligibility. There's some things that need to get modified not only in applying for SSI or we're exploring that but also in support planning and thinking about how do we make sure that we can protect them and support them in whatever that may look like for the individual. So there's probably gosh probably half the things on this list from going through needs based benefits to reviewing specialties, planning goals, this is a really good time though you're probably doing it with your transition team anyway but forward vision planning the forward thinking the goal setting the talking with your child about what does 21 look like form or what do they want to you know to do or to accomplish that's an important part that we always say starts at the beginning.
What Happens at 18?
Things change with the Oregon K-Plan, Medicaid, definitely community resources, you know change when you talk about somebody going from 17 to age 18. Applying, possibly, for SSI which will talk a lot about today ABLE account strategies, when a child turns age 18, mom or dad could have been authorized legal representative on the ABLE account. With them as a legal adult, this child has to actually sign off on that or the mom or dad have to petition the court for guardianship and we need to supply those documents to work in able to continue to operate in that capacity so tons of different things but the point is at age 18, covers many different facets of the overall plan and many of them here I just circled so hopefully that lays the foundation. Very important date of birth and lots of things change. Let's jump right into it so all those through gosh probably probably 10 or 12 different aspects of of transition playing with our important to think through and there are no particular order but we'll start with SSI.
SSI Benefits Planning - Eligibility, Application Process and More!
SSI or Supplemental Security Income is not the most important it's not necessarily the most time-consuming endeavor when your child turns age 18 to actually apply for adorable could be I guess here's what SSI is. First and foremost, so the SSI is a Social Security benefit that we do many presentations on SSI and SSDI and I try to make it very very clear that there's actually two different Social Security benefits. SSI is the needs based benefit, SSDI is the entitlement benefit. We won't talk at all about that today do you want to know more about that reach out to us but SSI being the needs based Social Security benefit but I didn't mean by needs based is an individual has to be low income and low in assets to qualify. The purpose of SSI is not to provide them a really nice place to live and enough money to go to basketball camp in the summer and buy a new pair of shoes and to go to the Oregon ducks football game… it's literally just put a roof over their head, food on the table and clothes on their back. It's to assures minimum level of income and so it's an important part because most individuals will begin qualifying at age 18 but I just want to kind of lay the foundation set set the stage for the fact that SSI is not going to be your child's sole source of income for the rest of her life. Meaning you don't need to do any other type of planning it's just a basic level of support. It doesn’t matter where you live… in you know Salem OR it's a flat $794.00 a month. I will say if you do live in California there is $160 state supplement that you actually get in addition to the $794 but for Oregonians and Washingtonians it's $794 is the maximum benefit. What can the money be used for? So we'll go through this here in a minute but to get the full SSI benefit, your child will have to be paying rent to the person or wherever they live that's one of the requirements of receiving the full $794. After rent has been paid, what comes after that is really just in the best interest of the individual so food or clothing, medical expenses could be fun things like that. All of the representative payee which is the person that would oversee the individual Social Security benefits. So in most instances if your child is turning age 18 and you apply it the Rep payee is typically a parent and they're the ones who are essentially overseeing that account. What's important next is talk about eligibility for SSI and again we have webinars that we go through and we talk about this in in a couple of hours of detail but I'll just give you the quick high level summary. First, regardless of age, doesn't matter if your child is 3 or 25 or 18, they must meet two different tests. One of which is on the diagnosis side, the second of which is on the financial side. So the two prong test is they have to have a qualifying disability that meets Social Security’s definition and they have to be low in income and they have to below in assets. Remember, just a moment ago, I mentioned SSI is a needs based benefit well needs based is obviously they need it they're low income and low assets loan income now go through this here in a couple of slides will just give you a quick summary now but the low end assets that would have to be under $2,000 in assets to qualify and they have to be earning under about $1,700 a month in income to be financially eligible to receive an SSI check. Even if your child has a qualifying disability but they have $4,000 in a bank account with mom, the individual unfortunately, they do not meet both tests. We would have to work on getting those assets under that $2,000 asset limit so that's that's a really important part of any needs based benefit is we have to make sure that assets in the individuals under the income threshold or under the asset threshold to be eligible.
Here's what's really important about transition planning and I would probably say maybe a couple times a month will get a call from a family and and during kind of our just fact finding they tell us that they applied for SSI they got denied and they hadn't applied since and we ask them at what age their child was when they applied and what their annual income is the reason I mentioned that is depending on the child's age dictates a lot on whether or not they're gonna be eligible for SSI because here's how it's how how it works from an acid test perspective number one if your child is under the age of 18 parents assets and parents income is a countable resource to them child 17 you heard from your friend to apply for SSI you apply on the application it's going to ask for moms income say she makes $60,000 and she has $100,000 retirement account unfortunately that's is is as much mom's retirement account as it is her son with a disability and that's the reason why most individuals under the age of 18 don't qualify for SSI until they become that age majority that that age 18 because for for reminder if mom and dad have over $3000 as a married couple and they have they earn over the poverty line generally they're not going to be eligible for SSI and just a good gauge would be a household of four if you know mom dad and two kids if they make over you know $26,000 a year they're likely not gonna be there child is not going to be eligible regardless of disability to receive an SSI check but what happens once your son experiencing disability turns age 18 all of those rules are out the door and what happens is they look at the sun with the individual experiencing disability as a household of one at that point in time and that's where moms assets and dads income and anything they have is as parents do not count towards the child and that Social Security deems that individual with a disability is a household of 1 which is why most of the time the child would be denied at 17 would be eligible at age 18 is they're no longer count mom or dad's assets and income so if you were denied previously consider again applying at age 18 especially if the reason for the denial was based on finances the financial impact rather than diagnosis and if you've applied before they do send you a letter if you got denied a sensually saying why the denial took place was it due to disability the financial criteria so I've got to mention if you got questions storm in the chat box write them down and we'll make sure that we that that we spend as much time as needed at the end answer any questions let's talk about the SSI application process 'cause it's not it's not clear it I think to a lot of people and sometimes with all due respect to our fantastic Social Security representatives not sure it's always clear to them what the actual process is the process can take between a couple of weeks and honestly potentially a couple of years I kid you not I'll just give you the the the quick high level summary of the I think it's you know eight different steps I recorded just to give you a sense of what you should expect so the first thing I would say is Social Security is now doing a much better job of more things happening online not having to fill out a paper application I having to walk down to the Oregon City or Beaverton Social Security office to actually apply in person you can actually do it online now be careful when doing it online there again are two different Social Security benefits one is SSI one is SSDI what makes it tough is SSDI does have disability insurance in the name and so some families say well gosh that's probably it I'm going to use that link just make sure with 100% certainty you know exactly the benefit that you're applying for and and and you know exactly the link in which you're using is applying for the right benefit because Social Security they're not great communicators nor timely communicators for that matter so once you complete the online application you should receive a call from the local Social Security office within seven days now the way Social Security works is if you call the 1-800-772-1213 number that typically routes you to Los Angeles Houston call centers the way in which SSI works is they're going to refer you to a local Social Security field office Washington County is Beaverton Clackamas County is Oregon City office there's one in downtown Portland which is Melanoma that's where you're going to be basically you're going to get a specific phone number to that that Social Security office and you're likely going to get assigned in actual person that's kind of your your Rep that phone interview that you schedule is really important part I would say it's a single most important part of SSI application process because this is a needs based benefit they can only award the SSI check with an interview that's completed and this is the interview we'll talk about income your son receiving how much you gonna charge him and rent who lives in the household you know all that all that type of information which you'll answer the question but you're not sure if that's the right answer that's why preparing for that phone call is is really really important step three an important decision that that should be made is who will be the individuals represented payee will it be them will it be mom will it be dad will it be a professional possibly but this is important decision just because this is the person that's the point of contact between the claimant which is the individual the disability person receiving the benefit um and Social Security so in terms of everything from reporting wages if your child is employed reporting a change in circumstance which could be if they get married if they change their name if they move in and and have a new address all of these things have to get reported to Social Security and are done by the representative payee really important role so as you work through the application process you're going to receive mail from from Social Security I always recommend to save all documents anytime that you receive a document take a picture of it store it somewhere you're probably gonna have questions on it here's the most important question the most often asked question or concern I guess is family applies they they they felt the application online 3-2 weeks later that they get a letter in the mail saying your Social Security benefit request has been denied you are not eligible for benefits at this time and the family takes a picture of it calls us and says what the heck like you said our child was eligible one thing that's really important to minimize that kind of you know freak out I guess is you will get a denial letter from Social Security retirement survivors and disability insurance this is the pot of money in which SSDI is essentially paid from we don't have time to get into how SSI is funded in SSDI is funded but any time in which someone goes on and needs based Social Security benefit being SSI Social Security has to apply for the entitlement benefit being SSI first and likely because your child is age 18 they don't they're not yet eligible for SSDI so Social Security will send you a letter first putting them through that application process they're denied they'll send you that letter saying they're not they're not approved which is totally fine we weren't even applying for that benefit in the first place save the letter store it but don't worry about it the only correspondence that you're worried about when you're applying for SSI is just the correspondence in the top left hand corner that says Supplemental Security Income you can disregard the statements that come that say Social Security retirement survivors and disability insurance so again those are two totally separate that's why I say Supplemental Security Income is really the only correspondence that we should be particularly worried about Fast forward the couple of weeks or a couple of months once the child is approved they will pay that benefit in in a way of direct deposit Social Security says they no longer send checks anymore I've actually had families say they've received Social Security checks in the mail but according to Social Security they will only pay benefits in two ways one is direct deposit two is they send you you have a loadable debit card they actually load load money onto but once approved you'll have to the the representative payee will want to set up a Social Security representative payee account one thing I will say is a good practice a good a good habit to get into if you're the Rep payee don't Co mingle that money with other money in which your son or daughter is receiving so if they're receiving you know a check for Christmas and birthday money and graduation money and income from employment I would strongly recommend having a totally separate account that representative or that SSI pays into so these funds are not commingled'cause I can guarantee you at some point Social Security will will audit and those they send U.S. bank statements from this date to this state and it just makes it very very Gray or muddy when there's lots of money going in and lots of distributions it's much easier for us to sort through one deposit of $794.00 on October 1st rent comes out new pair of shoes comes out and it's really really clear to explain to Social Security what exactly is happening so the last thing I would do and I I don't think there's enough families that do this but establish a my Social Security account if you if you've been through the Social Security process or you work with families that are on SSI everyone says the same thing Social Security is they're not great at communicating they don't do email it's only facts and USPS mail the best way to receive updates and change things and change banking information is through your my Social Security account you can you know report wages changing address do all that kind of stuff
so I would recommend you could just Google my Social Security and one of the first couple links will will will take you directly to a page that allow you to establish that that online portal strongly recommend that alright paying rent so this is a very very important piece probably one of the more important slides I would say is once your child turns age 18 to receive the full 794 dollar month benefit they must pay rent doesn't matter how much you love him as your son or daughter they have to pay rent because again a portion of that $794.00 is to truly put a roof over their head food on the table clothes on their back if you don't charge him rent Social Security will actually take away a third of the benefit and say we're not going to pay 794
we're going to pay you $529 because you clear clearly told us your son or daughter will not pay rent or is not currently paying rent or whatever it is so keep that in mind it's really really important and if you are getting 77 or you are getting 529 that exact amount most likely what Social Security has in their system is that the individual receiving that SSI benefit is either not paying rent is either pain or reduced amount in rent or getting some other type of in kind support or in kind income that that Social Security is counting we typically see I'm not sure why C is in all caps but we typically see rent at 500 to 575 a month but Social Security says is its fair market value you could make the justification for why it would be 600 or why it would be 450 but that's what we typically see one thing I'll mention that's important and most guardianship attorneys who work with with with with families in transition know this but if you apply for guardianship at age 18 you wanna make sure that you get the county court to approve that you will be charging your child rent or the protected person rent so that doesn't need to get pre approved by the by the county court before you can actually charge that that individual rent so again here's an example mom mom just got appointed guardian son is age 18 applying for SSI for him to pay rent to mom who's a guardian the court would have to approve of that what's really important in this and this comes up in the phone interview is we wanna make sure Social Security knows that that the individual is not it is paying fair market value rent and nobody is subsidizing their rents anyway so parents are not you know charging their child you know 400 a month in rent when they would charge something out 600 those numbers have to be uniform and you'll see it in the summary recommendations at you know I think it's in a slide or two but go into the Social Security call with the mindset that this is a business call and that you're totally disconnecting yourself from the fact that you are a parent for your child is kind of weird to even say that or probably think about that as a parent but for that 30 minute phone call your child for the most part is is a rent a rental or or are NT but basically it's the relationship of rent and rent or and that in no way because there are you know your child will you be charged them then less than what you charge somebody else we do recommend rental agreements occasionally Social Security is going to ask for you to actually prove that you're charging him rent or that there's something formal in place and so putting together a rental agreement is always a good idea like I previously mentioned if if if a child is receiving only $529 a month in rent that is most likely due to the fact that Social Security is saying or has recorded somewhere that this individual has some type of inkind support coming in whether it's parents you know subsidizing in some way or not charging the individual rent or the individual is being charged less than fair market value rent that's typically the reason why it's 529 here's just a copy of a rental agreement that we put together that that we've seen be successful it's it's pretty straightforward but at least it's a template too to that here's some just reminders we probably talk with with Social Security I'd say maybe once maybe maybe once a week and this is just as I sat down I was building this slide deck here some bullet points that or some things
Medicaid Planning
which I think are important for the washingtonians on the call this is something really cool about Washington that's different from Oregon so Washington is known as a 1634 state and what that means is that any individual who lives in the state of Washington who is SSI eligible automatically is enrolled in Medicaid Really helpful saves a lot of paperwork saves the possibility that maybe you know playing for for Medicaid age 18 slips the parents mind it's a really cool feature of of 1634 state that Washington is there's 34 states in the District of Columbia Washington DC is a 1634 state or again it's not like that Oregon is what's known as a SSI criteria state where sensually even though somebody here in Oregon could be receiving SSI they're not automatically rolled in Medicaid Medicaid uses the same requirements that Social Security uses but we have our own Medicaid application process and we reserve the right to essentially you know modify the rules if we so choose so that we're going to Washington are similar that's a big big difference big big difference that's the reason why in many instances we have families who say we were told by somebody that we need to keep $1 of of of SSI to stay on Medicaid in in in Washington and and generally that's actually true for for individuals on SSI in Washington also on Medicaid make sure that when you apply for SSI that the child applying is under $2000 in assets so countable assets would be new anything the child has access to so could be a joint account with mom could be a retirement account to many instances it could be a custodial account that's that's with grandpa and the individual it could be you know those are typically the accounts which we see a custodial account a joint account a cash account of treasury bonds that you know grandma purchased you know nine years ago when the child was was nine years old those are those are most likely countable if they've matured answers go through and look at everything that your child has and you know what's not countable would be a college 529 enable account to special needs trust part of the primary vehicles that are not countable so that's an important part obviously being under that $2000 asset limit I think it's it's it's important to not let more than three weeks go by without some type of update from Social Security they're not good communicators they won't call you for the most part and say hey we're we're missing a BNC can you get this over to us here's the fax number we'll keep an eye out for it if something is not in good order the chance of them reaching out to you and notifying that there needs to be additional follow up on your end is very low so I always say setting your calendar every three weeks give a call to Social Security checking the status where is that in the queue do they have everything are they missing something you know be respectfully persistent as you could guess keep everything you get from from Social Security I always every time I'm on the the phone with Social Security I'm diligently typing away notes just to hold them accountable to record it they said because it's it's it's a it's a benefit in a program that has a very extensive operations manual that you know very little of that I know very little of that and in most cases Social Security knows very little about that and so I think that the more that you can write down record and do research and ask questions the better because mistakes are made if you have diligent notes I think that that minimizes the chance that might be might be your fault as I mentioned just to kind of set the stage I guess for just working with with Social Security I always take take this this the stance that what is apparent that when you're on the phone with Social Security it's a business phone call you want to obviously be nice and cordial by by all means but um but go in with the mindset that that this is something that you're gonna you know handle just like you you handle a business phone call taking notes preparing it beforehand you know thinking about what you're gonna you know mention when you first get ahold of somebody or what how you gonna update them on the situation or what questions you're gonna ask prior to be on the phone in many instances you could wait between you know 15 minutes and I wait as long as 2 1/2 hours on hold and when you finally get somebody they're gonna be very quick to the point and you wanna make sure you give a very clear and concise summary and objectives for what you're trying to accomplish because they they don't win any any awards on customer service I will tell you that and I love them all as we talked about SSI and retirement survivors and disability insurance which essentially is is is SSDI are two totally separate so make sure when you're talking with Social Security about SSI that you don't say just Social Security or Social Security benefit or Social Security check make sure you're very specific on SSI so use that acronym use SSDI when you're talking about SSDI but again try to get in the habit of it's not just Social Security benefits as one whole but rather SSI SSDI prepare yourself mentally beforehand I can't promise you they're going to treat you you know like like you're a five star you know at a five star resort and so prepare yourself mentally III kind of joke around saying that but I would I would be ready for them not being particularly helpful and just to kind of kind of set the expectations in your own mind so you don't get blown away by the questions they ask and I'm not telling you anything I wouldn't say to a Social Security Rep that was on this call but to prepare yourself beforehand'cause you know like all humans we can get very worked up when someone's not not as helpful as we'd like and so going in four hand expecting that I think helps in many situations me keep my own cool and stay level headed this might be one of the more important bullet points do not mail eight state document to Social Security that you cannot afford to lose if you mail something just just to Social Security I would I would I would think about it in the way in which once that document is mailed there could be a very good chance you will not get it back or you will not get it back in the state in which you sent it so if there's a spade a notarized original copy your only copy of your child special needs trust or or the you know guardianship judgment or power attorney do not under any circumstance my opi
Representitive Payee
nion and attorney might have a different door Social Security Rep might might have a different philosophy I would not send that document to Social Security I wouldn't even leave it with them I wouldn't even go down and drop it off and say I'm gonna come back you know next week to pick it up just just just from experience anything that you give to Social Security you may not actually get it back so it'll save you a lot of headache in the in the in the future the role of represented payee all kind of speed through this 'cause I'm only on slide 11 but uh the role of represented payee so this is the person that overseas that the Social Security benefit benefit for the individual so really important role some of the different roles or tasks in which the repet will actually complete would be actually paying rent would be making a distribution to pay for you know some type of good or good or service from the SSI check keeping keeping records reporting wages a really important one specially if the vision for you know post transition at age 21 is to get into employment reporting those those wages to Social Security is is one of the most important roles respond to all requests from Social Security I will say that being a guardian or conservator or having a power of attorney or being a parent does not automatically make you a Rep payee you have to be appointed by Social Security you have to actually apply for it you have to actually be approved so being any one of those roles is not an automatic qualification so some of the things which you want to report as as Rep payee honestly just about any big change moving new job marriage legal name change stops working all that kind of stuff you wanna make sure that you're reporting to Social Security we don't need to get a ton into this 'cause if you've been on our our our SSI or SSDI webinar you probably saw this but you do have to report an event a change of circumstance you you actually only have 10 days until the following month and that that change in circumstance has to be reported so today is September 28th if your child received or moved today they finally got the keys to their new apartment today you actually by Social Security rules have until the 10th of October to report that change such an important important reminder to make sure that that you have in the back of your mind you have 10 days until the following month to actually make that change on or actually provide that change to Social Security on the wage reporting side of things you can report wages in a couple different ways you can call them you can go on office you can send him a letter I strongly recommend you know instead of calling him and wait on hold but actually utilizing the free wage reporting app you can download directly on your iPhone it's really simple and easy and it's really the best and simplest way on making sure that they get the update information on what your child earned that month because it was important is if your child is receiving SSI because it's a needs based benefit and will go through this here in a moment but every dollar your child earns actually reduces their SSI check by $0.50 so that's why reporting wages is so important'cause if you don't then Social Security keeps paying the individual the full benefit when they were actually because of wages only entitled to half that benefit whenever they find out and they will they will actually send you a letter and say you need you need to pay us back that money that we paid you you know it could be $3000 it could be 30,000 but they will ask that money back so staying on top of this is is really important managing with the funds like I like I mentioned previously I would I would recommend not Co mingling funds here's how I would recommend titling the account and one thing to keep in mind is if you do go down to the bank and you're gonna establish a Rep payee account make sure you have some type of documentation that you have been the approved and named Rep payee if you go down and you say Social Security had appointed me Rep payee we want to open a Rep payee account they're gonna say you have to provide proof or we cannot do that so make sure before you go establish account you want some type of proof handy whether it's a letter you know typically it's gonna be in the form of a letter that says you know mom Rep payee you know for you know son so make sure you have that the bank does this very routinely so they're they're gonna know how to title the account but it shouldn't be titled as a joint account it should have a you know one of these two titles on it you know Billy Billy Ray Cyrus representative for or represented payee for Miley Cyrus so again joint account is not the same as approved Rep payee account account titles alright you spent 45 minutes on just SSI we're doing good OK what happens with K plan so I'll go through some of the highlights that that we see first we typically see hours increase as an individual goes from 17 to age 18 that's in a lot of situations of concern for a lot of families we work with is what what what happens to our hours so they go up they go down in the past because typically the individual goes through it in a new assessment as an adult now that things as a child obviously change you're now an adult that new assessment results in additional hours being being being allocated when you talk about the Oregon K plan personal support work hours one other thing that's important now is apparent when their child turns age 18 can be a paid support worker this is something that's not able to be done currently if your child is a minor now during the during the pandemic there's families I believe that that have over 260 hours I believe is a number that if your child is a minor and they have over certain amount of number of hours then it's 260 or so a month that parent can be a paid support worker that's only during the during the pandemic that outside of this whole you know pandemic situation we're dealing with typically it's only a parent that has a child over age 18 that can be a support worker support workers earn you know roughly $15 an hour and for a parent that their child lives with them this income is actually federal income tax free but the parent just pays Oregon income tax on it it's as a result of the difficulty of care exclusion I believe it's section 126 of the Internal Revenue Code that essentially says that if you have a child that lives with you that has disability that's receiving Medicaid funded support that income is actually federal income tax free so keep that in mind actually got all of that one of the things that I'll mention is decide if if it is you're in in your child benefit to actually be a support or for you to actually be a support worker for them so I I think in many situations parents say gosh we're not using all the hours we can't find support worker to actually work the hours there's things which I'm doing to help to help support my child that you know to to to earn that $15 an hour my might be worth doing and it could very well be that be that way we do have some situations where many many parents say we want to outsource some of those hours to people that you know maybe have similar age to my child similar interests maybe child you know learns better by not working with mom and dad so talk to your you know personal agent or caseworker about what do you think of the best fit is I will say that you can't be the employer of record the person actually hires the support workers and complete time cards that kind of stuff and also be a paid support worker so typically the relationship is parent is you know one parent is the employee record second parent is a support worker if they do decide that they do want to work some of those hours so another part I think of the transition planning age is to start thinking about at age 18 do you transition to the
Brokerages versus County Developmental Disabilities Services
brokerages or do you stay with you know clackmas county Multnomah County Washington County DD services so the ultimate question I think becomes do you actually transition case management services for child from the county to the brokerage just to give you a quick summary on both Oregon brokerage services they they became a thing I guess for lack of their term in 2001 the thing was the Staley settlement in 2001 that essentially was result of wait list due to the county being far longer than what this state rules regulations were of 90 days and so there's a class action lawsuit families won the funding of that went to essentially establish brokerages to say let's split the caseload up for you know three to age 18 or three day age 17 and 18 in on so brokerages primarily serve adults for the most part county is typically for kids under the age of 18 last time I counted there were 14 brokerages in Oregon serving about 8000 dolts or probably upwards of nine to maybe in $10,000 across the state of Oregon each of the brokerage is kind of sit in each of the counties I believe there's eight here in the Tri county area that serve you know clackmas Clackamas Multnomah Washington they had six but there's brokerages in each in each county around the state all of which frankly are really really good and I know there's some personal agents on the call today but we've had some we haven't had a bad experience with any of the brokerages and the same with the county they've all been fantastic so as I mentioned brokerages serve only individuals over the age of 18 Because they serve adults some of the feedback and some of the you know I'm somewhat we've been hearing is because they serve adults they're more equipped or or have a bit more experience on working with things that adults experience employment living independently college possibly SSI you know handling able accounts things like that so the other thing that I would say with the the brokerages is usually they have a caseload of maybe 40 to 50 families pull per personal agent the the caseload the county tends to be a bit of a bit smaller doesn't always result in better service but less people typically you get more maybe a personal hands on approach both the brokerage and county DD services is paid by Medicaid so is really no difference on that side of things county like I mentioned typically they work with you know families who have kids between ages of three and age 17 there is a section in the county in which they they they they do serve adults so it's not I guess requirement to move from county DD services to the brokerage age 18 generally speaking the individuals is is eligible for roughly this the same services through both the brokerage and the county so it's obviously like case by case basis but for the most part the decision is less about what what services will my child be eligible for but more about do I like the idea of the brokerages have heard good things have I got referred to you know a personal agent at one with brokerages you know and and in some situations it comes down to you know how is the service been at you know Washington County DD services and doesn't even make sense to move I will say when you do transition to age 18 even if you stay with the county in most instances they're gonna move you to in adult caseworker so even if you love your you know caseworker that you've had for six years keep in mind that you may anyway get get transferred to somebody new
Important ABLE Account Considerations
so let's talk about able accounts so I'll give you the the quick summary on unable just to set the stage and then we'll talk about certain things that are important to keep in mind when your child turns age 18 so able accounts have been around for about the last seven or so years passing the federal law and signed by President Obama back in December of 2014 at essentially says that somebody who is receiving these based benefits can have up to $100,000 in able account it's not countable that money is not countable towards that $2000 asset limit so really for the first time when you think about somebody receiving SSI and Medicaid they can put $15,000 a year in to enable account and not have that jeopardized their benefits and that could be saving for a vacation you know blazer tickets it could be you know anything in which the individual wants to save for that they otherwise prior to this able account passing they could not have done but they'd have to continually spend money down spend money down just to stay under that $2000 asset limit really really helpful able to accounts here in Oregon have been around since December 6th of 2016 so still fairly new we're coming up on on five years now but they've been a total game changer when you think about building a support plan for an individual experiencing disability contributions must be made with cash and must be with after tax dollars what I mean by that is you can't transfer investments like you know dad's Nike stock it can't be transferred over to able without you know being being sold so it have to be sold thank you strike we have to be sold taxes paid and then cash proceeds deposit to the able account there's an annual contribution maximum of $15,000 on the calendar year January 1st to December 31st but individuals who are employed had the ability to contribute either the lesser of what they earn it at work or the previous year federal poverty line what should you know for the amount in in 2021 is 12,880 so for example say you have an individual who's earning $8000 a year work they can put in 15,000 + 8000 so really really helpful benefit when you think about you know trying to get as much money into enable accounts possible anybody can contribute the individual their family specially to trust anybody can really contribute to enable account here in Oregon the maximum that that can be in the able count is 400,000 but I will say for an individual at receiving SSI to keep that SSI benefit that aid will account has to be under $100,000 so the only time in which you'd be able to go over that $100,000 threshold and not jeopardize any of your benefits it's only if the individual is receiving SSDI which typically is not a benefit that a child will be eligible for until they're likely in their late 20s or or early 30s so again if your child is on SSI I would recommend keeping the able account under $100,000 that includes growth that includes contributions investment growth and contributions that is what can the money be used for essentially everything anything for the benefit of the individual and so I'll just quickly you know kind of give you the the blanket you know comment of if your plan using money that is in your child's best interest or your child's primary interest is going to benefit them first it can come from the able account the only things in which we would recommend to not use from the able count would be if your child CBD oil for example say your child has a history of seizures and your child's been using CBD oil though it's legal here in Oregon it's not legal federally and so we haven't had something in an official statement issue but I'd say stay away maybe from painful that but literally everything else can't come from able count I mean it's just it's really that flexible what changes at age 18 so a couple things are important once the individual turns age 18 they're an adult and though you are an authorized legal representative on the able count when they were minor and you could operate in that capacity without their approval once their age 18 they actually have to name you or you actually have to be approved to operate that in that capacity so the permission could either be you're either guardian your conservator or you have a power of attorney that's notarized if your child's age 18 you need one of those three or unfortunately you can't operate as a authorized legal representative oh but I will say if you say gosh I don't have any of those but I still want to support my child and you know allow them to utilize able funds what you can use is organ able has a specific able power attorney document it's a six page document here's Page 1 you can download it directly from the Oregon able savings website that this is where I'd recommend if you just want authority over your child's able account I will say if you're going to complete that document and you're going to get notarized have your child sign might be worth just getting a general durable power attorney document that allows you to oversight of not just able but also every other financial resource that your child might have so again that power training document is just for able but it could be very well you know worth talking with your planning team and seeing if it's worth getting a power attorney that allows you to you oversee other types of accounts as well guardianship conservatorships and the alternatives this is a this is a big one this is 1/2 day presentation in itself will condense it down to two slides at least just to give you the the foundation what is guardianship so so guardianship is this it gives the individual it gives the guardian typically the guardian might be apparent or or a sibling or a trusted resource the authority to make decisions related to health and the mental well being of an individual and this is a process that I strongly recommend using an attorney to petition the court for the court to essentially deem the individual with a disability as not having capacity and therefore saying that somebody needs to be named to provide support on behalf of the individual so that's essentially what guardianship is is the court deems the individual is not having capacity therefore naming somebody to make important medical placement decisions on their behalf what is conservatorships conservatorships is similar in the process but it's different by way of a conservator is somebody who's going to be appointed by the court to essentially oversee the assets that the that the individual receives or has so guardian here in Oregon can actually oversee up to $10,000 without being a conservator once that money surpasses 10,000 a conservator needs to be appointed and named we don't see conservatorships all that often the reason why we don't see it all that often is because mostly assets that an individual has are either in a special needs trust or are below 2000 because if you are a conservative for your child and they have over $10,000 they're not receiving any need space benefits because again it's over that $2000 limit and I would say are we sure we're not supposed to be you know keeping your child eligible for needs based benefits why do you need to be conservator there are cases in which that's needed without a doubt but this is an important part of you know working with your advisory team on actually thinking through your your specific situation not only do you need to be conservator but more importantly from the get go is does your child have capacity and do they even need a guardian in the first place because there are alternatives I think are really important the term incapacitated I'll give you the state of Oregon definition but essentially what it is I'll let you read it as well but assess what it is is that if the individual cannot make good sound health food shelter those important decisions for themselves that may put them at risk at some point in the future that it might be worth considering to discussing applying for guardianship for an individual so I think asking yourself some important questions regarding your your child's you know safety and what does support look like in the future and what would we do in the event of an emergency some of those things those are important questions to get answered with with your advisor team to determine whether you do need to go to guardianship route or if alternatives are sufficient supported decision making helping them make decisions not essentially you making all the decisions but more kind of coaching them on what's what's what's a good decision a
Guardianship, Power of Attorney and Supportive Decision Making
nd what's not power of attorney like we talked about getting hip release forms those those types of things would would be all alternatives let's talk about power of attorney and then we'll jump back to a guardianship here in a moment so a power of attorney is a legal document that allows somebody to act on somebody else's behalf so on a power attorney situation this is going to be a way in which your child is going to appoint you a decision maker on investment accounts and you know Rep payee accounts and and able accounts that you could essentially step in and request a statement get a tax document open in the account cell a car you know buy a house do those types of things so I think generally if if if guardianship is not the right route to go I think in some way shape or form power of attorney typically is at is is is helpful to make sure that you're you know supporting them in whatever situation arises the power training document will become effective on the date in which it's signed and it'll be in effect until the individual revokes that so typically what happens is you get a power of attorney document you know parent signs individuals disability signs it gets notarized what that document says is that the individual disability is making the decision to allow somebody the ability to basically be a substitute on you know making you know certain financial decisions so it's it's something that should not be taken lightly but an important one this is a document that that needs to get notarized and like I previously mentioned being a power of attorney is a requirement to be an authorized legal representative on the able account so if you don't go the guardianship route you would need if your child age 18 to be a power of attorney holder to continue to support them on their you know able account endeavors and here's page one of I think 12 of this particular you know Oregon durable power attorney form so they kind of summarize because I'm sure I'm not always the best explaining the difference between guardianship and power of attorney I wanna just kind of put it on a spectrum so if you put the support decision on a spectrum you have power turning the left hand side and the important difference between power of attorney and guardianship is in power of attorney the individual to disability has capacity has the ability to actually understand a document their signing and know that they're actually signing over authority or a substitute decision making to a parent or to somebody else so for someone to have power of attorney the individual to disability has to have deemed have capacity because they've they're implying that they're understanding that that document in knows some of the ramifications of that guardianship and conservatorships is on the total opposite end this during the guardianship process the court deems the individual is not having capacity or incapacity and that would be the sole difference is you really cannot have both 'cause they essentially contradict each other guardianship to chorus and this person does not have capacity have returned by signing it is implying that person does have capacity so that's why they're so very very different on the guardianship side typically a two to three month process we typically see retainers that are collected by the the attorney work walking through that actual process that somewhere between you know 4 to $6000 that typically covers obviously attorney fees paralegal fees court filing fees things like that as a guardian you are required to file a four page annual report with the county well means a different date if it was September 1st of last year you have until I believe it's October 1st of the following year to actually file that report that asks for things like you know have you filed for bankruptcy as guardian are there any account new accounts that you oversee more just disclosing you know changes that happened the last 365 days we typically recommend families proud age 18 start this process about 90 days or three months prior to their child birth date um and again we've had a couple of families do it themselves or use a paralegal I think attorneys aren't important part of making sure it's done efficiently and done the right way so if you want a recommendation to a guardianship attorney we can absolutely help I mention this but I'll mention it again if you are going to apply for guardianship just make sure that you are getting approval to receive rent or charge rent from the protected person or your or in most cases the child so this is a SSI requirement to receive that full Social Security benefit here's some important employment reminders as you transition to the next topic so I think in many cases I think the sense that that families get is Social Security and Medicaid do not encourage employment but it's definitely it's definitely not the case they do have certain work incentive programs to make sure that individual does get get get to experience employment if it is a part of the vision we won't talk about today but Social Security has many work incentive programs for both SSI and SSDI Medicaid here in Oregon has
Employed Persons with Disabilities (EPD) Medicaid
EPD Medicaid employed persons with disabilities Medicaid in Washington it's HWD Medicaid health health insurance for workers with disabilities and stay at Washington so it's about knowing the programs I think once you understand the inner workings of of how these things work they do both those important entities Social Security Medicaid do encourage employment Make sure that the transition goals align with what the future vision is after many of you have fantastic I iep teams and I would say that's that's really important part is to align the vision with the actual goals that are in you know the actions happening on the transition side this is important so if your child ventures into employment I think most people determine whether this is a good Employment Opportunity and and by you know the hours and the wage and what they're doing and do they like it and how much support are they receiving but do not forget about the benefits that certain employers offer do they offer health insurance most importantly for needs based benefits purposes make sure that you understand the 41K plan or the the retirement plan offered at that at at at that particular employer because remember 401K if an individual is not on EPD Medicaid is a countable resource so I can't tell you how many times we've seen a family they're there their child is working at Nike we're working at a company that which has an automatic payroll employer sponsored match 41 case established you know a year end employer starts putting in you know $65 a paycheck family doesn't know about it and all of a sudden they look at the account and said $4100 and they say gosh Dang it we have a we have an issue we don't want to jeopardize benefits and so that's why I'm making sure you understand the full suite of employer sponsored benefits especially a 401K is really important as income changer with employment make sure you keep Social Security and Medicaid updated on employment changes so both of those are a change in circumstance in which you're required to report wage wage changes Social Security is much more stringent especially if you're on SSI where you want to be reporting wages on a monthly basis internships volunteering great options as well so keep that in mind I think employment is not always about just the income coming in but obviously as you guys all know it's about skill building the confidence building the structure the sense of self worth and there's some really good you know unpaid and unpaid internships as well as volunteering you know opportunities that are you know out there um for Charles employed when in doubt I would say file a tax return for them because even if they make you know a couple $100 a year obviously talk with your with your tax advisor but in many instances I'm saying use the free online filing tool through the IRS file a return there's a very good chance that they're likely gonna get some money back on their tax return there's two important benefits I would mention one of which is the able contribution credit the other the others is savers credit your child over the age of 18 employed and making a contribution to enable account they could be up were eligible for up to $150 in the able tax credit on their state of Oregon income tax return as well as $1000 savers credit on their federal return that could be $11150 in just refund money coming back to them so that's why I think it's important to file a return get get the refund and take advantage of some of those very important benefits the thing that's important for individuals that are employed is not only for employment visuals can they contribute $15,000 to the able account but they can also contribute an additional $12,880 so we talked about that a couple slides ago but this is a huge huge benefit that I don't think enough families are taking advantage of or if they are taking advantage of it they they they may be missing an important piece you want to make sure that when you contribute that you clearly and distinctly make a a note either if you're making electronic contribution online or you're writing a check you wanna make sure you're clear on whether this contribution is going to go towards the able to work contribution amount or the standard contribution amount because if you if your child is is contributing $500 a month to be able account that you wanted that to be a part of the able to work contribution credit or the able to work contribution amount and you don't make that distinction they're going to automatically apply it to the standard contribution amount so we like anytime an individual who's employed is contributing make sure it's clear that it's going towards the able to work them out as we continue to talk about employment so there are income limits for SSI and Medicaid and again this could be a coup
le hour presentation but I'll just give you a quick summary if an individual receiving SSI every dollar they earn at work will reduce their SSI check by $0.50 so they earn $1000 at work their SSI benefit will no longer be 794 will likely be 294 and that's why reporting wages is so important because Social Security every month will actually update the the future months check dependent upon how much was actually earned that month what typically happens in the way the math works is that if an individual is making over $1652 on a monthly basis their SSI check then basically shrinks down to zero based on the relationship of a dollar earned produces that check by $0.50 for Medicaid here's the income limit for the HCBS waiver which to sensually K plan is the most important benefit which funds K plan that income threshold is $2382 so it's a really important one to know if your child is just receiving you know your your typical suite of K plant benefits and Medicaid I will mention and I II mentioned this in the past is EPD Medicaid is a program that we didn't have time to get to today but is a program that that allows the individual to earn significantly more almost $5500 a month in in an income and still be eligible for that important HCBS waiver and the K plan support work hours so if you don't know enough about ipd I would say that should definitely be on the list if your child you think has a really good chance at some substantial employment I'll scoot through the next couple of slides vocational rehabilitation is essentially job training is a vital piece I think if if your child vision for themselves includes employment that would get to know VR and put this at the top of the list in terms of engaging with them at least starting the conversation if you're in Oregon talk to your service coordinator your caseworker personal agent or call the VR office that's the mainland right there it'll then direct you to the the regional VR offices for the families in Washington they break it up similar to out worrying and death by but by county so there's the Vancouver Clark County anybody in King County up in Seattle area I can send you that that number as well there's actually 45 offices so they are scattered around Washington just to give the best type of service so here's a couple of college planning considerations I think college planning is is important that if your child is a part of the transition program graduates with a modified diploma and is eligible for the transition program to to 21 after 21 is a big decision point in which you say gosh is there any postsecondary education into the venture into employment do they go right today programs what is their life look like thinking about college is important there's been a bunch of studies done this is no you know secret but people that have people with IDD with intellectual and developmental disabilities if they do have a certificate or some type of post secondary degree they're likely going to be earning more than someone who doesn't that's not not anything new here's a couple of other things I think that that are worth mentioning as as you you venture into this is for needs based benefits purposes college grants financial aid those types of subsidies we we we want to be very very careful about how long you've had them whether they could gonna be used for just so you don't jeopardize eligibility college grants and financial aid is not a countable resource if your child receives that money and they use it all within nine months for higher education expenses so they could get a college grant of $5000 on October 1st and it's not until you know what's the math nine months later in which it would be jeopardizing their eligibility so they could have that in almost entire school year to spend that $5000 on education expenses any portion of that financial aid or grant that is not used or saved within that. Will be not only a resource in the following month but is also treated as income so if you don't want to remember some of the inner workings in the details of some of these rules just make sure it's either gone in nine months or move to enable account makes things much much simpler here's an example let's say teddy is going to college teddy gets $5,000 in in a grant in September from a disability nonprofit and he's going to use that for for college expenses he used $4,000 for tuition he set aside $1,000 for student fees and supplies teddy just has to spend that $1000 by next may in the in the grant will not be an issue by any means or the you know the allocated $1,000 for student fees and supplies won't be an issue for any type of needs based benefits here's where it gets a little bit tricky is if he uses a portion of that money say $500 for the education grant to attend a football game this is not clearly an education expense it will be treated as income in the month in which she uses it if he does not use it all it would be true as resource in the following month so just make sure you're cognizant of money coming in from from some of these grants or or subsidy programs and make sure to move to able or spent on education expenses the other thing that I'd like to mention is able accounts are really powerful tools and the ability to move money from a college 529 to enable account is doable in many situations can be really impactful you can move $15,000 from a college 529 to enable account in in every every 12 months so if you did a $15,000 rollover from a college 5 to 9 to enable account on September 28th of this year you're not able to make another rollover until September 28th of 2022 the other reason why I like cable is just that there's that much more flexible on what the money can be used for when you compare it to a college 529 last thing I'll mention just college planning considerations is college students that are working and receiving SSI check make sure you understand the student earned income exclusion so this allows the individual to actually have wages impact their SSI check far less than what I proved you went through so if they're employed and they're earning an income it also excuse me not employed if they're going to school and they're actively enrolled in classes and also employed I guess both Social Security will actually not count $1930 in that month so they could they could earn that $1900 a month in their SSI check will will say the same it'll be the same you know $794.00 they only have a maximum exclusion of $7,770 so keep that in mind as you kind of venture through employment work with the job coach work with the benefits counselor reach out to us and we can work through some of these important programs to allow them to keep their full SSI check be employed and still go to go to go to school alright final thoughts final thoughts we've been going hard at it for almost an hour and a half so hopefully this has been helpful talk about the future vision map out goals this is the the beginning to a successful transition plan the the the more that you can record and map things out and get it down on paper the better the outcome is in the end I think another thing that's important as we've seen you know almost 4000 families many of which are are thinking about you know transition planning college planning is save save save money does not buy happiness but it buys options and the benefit of saving in to enable account to get that money to a point in which now there's no shortage of different programs because of cost that we can explore don't be afraid to over front of college 529 account these are really powerful tools we can move it you know college 529 to another sibling another family member we can move it to an able account and you can have both an able account and a college account as well so begin thinking about life now after the transition program will it be college courses will it be employment will be day program you know start to get a better sense of what your child's interests are and where they might be comfortable and and you know use that as kind of square one I think the age 18 transition planning can be attacked loans you don't need our help you don't need you know to apply for SSI if you do do it alone research research research map at a timeline and put together a sequence of events so you know exactly what you should be tackling at what point in time 'cause you don't want to get to a point obviously where your child is turning age 18 in three weeks and you have yet to kind of begin to work through petition the court for guardianship you know applying for SSI making sure they're under the $2000 asset limit all that kind of stuff begin the SSI application process once your child turns age 18 because if they're found eligible they will actually get it backdated check all the way back to the date of application so if you wait until you know 19 years old to file the application they won't get a check with back to age 18 it would just be from the date in which the application was submitted so begin that soon just so you can get that application date in stone lastly your child caseworker or personal agent they're they're an incredible resource leverage their experience and expertise because they do this for you know dozens upon dozens of families and I think the education is power so the more that you can use them and us and other resources to make sure they're you know educated as always improves outcomes so alright that is it my throat is actually is actually a little bit sore right now this has been good hopefully you guys have a have enjoyed this and it's been helpful let's jump into some of the questions dimension it might be helpful to share that you get immediate SSDI rejection letter if your pet has no work history was confusing and put me in a panic to receive that early communication not knowing exercise eligibility was still under review yes thank you good point specific to the subsidizing room and board as a tenant it's less risk to re
nt to a family member does SSA Social Security acknowledge that risk through a diff the different is there difference between a family member and a stranger unfortunately no they kind of look at those the exact same and don't actually put that much you know thought into it they're just looking for is the amount the same between both and unfortunately they don't say we're gonna charge somebody a bit more or it would make sense to charge you know somebody you find you on Craigslist more because of that risk that you mentioned they don't take that into account unfortunately what accounts are not countable so a college 529 is not countable enables not countable and a properly drafted special needs trust or really the three most often used vehicles that are not countable towards that $2000 asset limit can you speak to the caseload of brokerages versus county does a lot outline limits or capacities of caseload based on the suit you know it's a really good question I don't know the exact requirements or the result of the lawsuit I do know that because there's you know I guess because there's more people that receive services through through through the county as opposed to the brokerage the caseloads are just are just larger within the county I'm not sure I have much more information on kind of law you know what that outlines on in in terms of limits but Gee I can definitely do some research on that Another huge difference is that brokerages only serves in home customers living in their own home with family or friends if someone is needed a foster group home or residential care they would need to be transferred to the county to get services yes that is a really good point because I don't believe that the brokerages offer comprehensive care which is typically the group home model so Chelsea thank you for that that's incredibly helpful I think that is it I think that is it in an hour and a half on the dot hopefully that was helpful if there's anything we can do to help don't hesitate to reach out we do you know offer 30 minute consultation just to see if there's anything that we can do to help assist or punch in the right direction on resources attorneys in anything to that effect so thank you to you all for sticking around the webinar is recorded will will will get you out the webinar so you can view it but you guys have a really good Tuesday and we'll look forward to seeing the next webinar thanks so much for spending time with us we look forward to seeing you guys again soon Chelsea good timing I will cover this question I heard that enable account cannot be used to buy home is that true it can the home would have to be in the name of the individual so you could take money out of an able account and put a down payment on the condo the condo would have to be owned by the individual to disability in many instances families say well gosh maybe it's better if it's owned by an LLC or owned by a special needs trust so it's doable there's just really specific I guess case specific things which you wanna think through before you was able accounts to buy a home because one of the rules of able accounts is you can't use funds from naval count to buy a home that's owned by a special needs trust door by a home that's in the name of mom and dad so I'm hopefully at it helps Chelsea if do you have anymore details of that call us and we can you know coach you through and see if there's anything that we can help so thanks to you all that was a marathon hopefully that was helpful again we will get the recording out to you guys thanks for joining us and we look forward to seeing you guys all soon happy Tuesday see ya!